Is the USA screwed?

Well...the title basically says it all. And since there's no objective way to look at this, I gotta start with something that some tempers don't seem to get through their skull:

I'M NOT A FUCKING DEMOCRAT, OKAY? :angry: I'm from Belgium. The average democrat is a "regular" rightwing citizen on this part of the world.


True, for the last three years I've pissed all over Trump's agenda (or lack thereof). Partially for selfish reasons, mostly because he's an idiot with...erm...to say it flattering: some deluded followers. He spits out a lie, it get debunked, his followers instantly mistrust the debunkers ("he must be a democrat and therefore a liar!"). It started with 'alternative facts', went on to a threatening nuclear war with North Korea, then a huge-ass government shutdown over a broken campaign promise, then the Mueller investigation on his shady pre-election campaign and finally an impeachment for a crime during his presidency. I didn't think it could be topped, because even though I'm leaving out some smaller embarrassing snipplets those other scandals are kids play in comparison ("okay, so he drew on a weather map, contradicting his own weather service? Aaaaawwwwwww...that's so cute for those not from the region").

And now all that IS topped. USA survived quite well without a leader so far...but it may be too late now.
Let me first state: our European governments aren't that much better. Sure, it was in the news, but there's this certain inertia when it comes to the news that, ironically, US citizens probably know too well: "whatever's on the news doesn't concern me". there's probably some name for this syndrome (in Dutch, it's called "dat is ver van mijn bed", translated to "it's too far from my bad to matter", but I've got no clue how you'd call it). There's still an active thread mocking "the media" on overhyping the virus.

Unfortunately for the USA, the rest of the world has quality newspapers and a government worth a damn. When the details of the virus became known and it turned out that the outbreak in Italy was severe, Belgium went into lockdown. At that time (18th of March), we barely had a handful of contagions. But I've pissed on our own politicians as well in the past, but I've got to hand it to them: they acted when it mattered. Our Flemish and Wallonian country parts are politically so different it's not even that different from democrats and republicans, but all political or even langual differences(1) were immediately swept aside. Gone were "typical Belgian" arrangements where rules applied to this city or province but not in others. The lockdown was nationwide, was severe and put into full effect about 12 hours after announcement.

Granted: hindsight is 100%. But even though we were faster to act than e.g. the Netherlands or the UK (I'll get to those clowns), the days are tense over here. Everyone on television urges people to stay at home as much as possible. Celebrities, politicians, royals...everyone.
I gotta tell you: it's pretty surreal having to stay at home (and thus fully realizing the coronian danger) and then see the president of the united states first minimalize things, and then pull out a random date out of his ass when this'll all be over (Easter? Why Easter? :unsure:).

It's at that point that stats are starting to become relevant. It's not for masochistic reasons that my girlfriend and me are glued to the television each day, eager to hear about the new infections and deaths...it's because that number still keeps rising! Worse: virologists have sadly predicted that there'll be a time where it would keep doing that for some time after the shutdown, for the simple reason that the incubation period means people in shutdown may not realise they're infected in the first place.
...and we may be a tad optimistic here(2), but it seems like we are hitting the peak. Because for all the snorting and scowling Belgians do at their government, we know they aren't messing around when it comes to serious matters (and oh, boy...this is most likely the most serious thing we've encountered since the last world war). We stay at home and avoid personal contact. When we're (very) ill, we go to the emergency hospital. Things like jobs and costs are of no concern.

Now then...the USA. I've never actually BEEN there, but the way I perceive it, it's got the short end on a great many amount of sticks... (note: correct me when I'm wrong)

* your health care system is totally inadequate. Without health insurance from your job, you end up paying through the nose for even the simplest of actions. Result: people will be less inclined to go to the hospital at the first signs, but as this doesn't just "goes away" they'll go to the hospitals when they're already in the worst kind of shape.
* your preparations were worthless. The pandemic team fired (and not replaced) years ago, only a third of the federal employees who watched instructions on what to do in case of a pandemic still in service and a president who lives in denial are all bad omens.
* trust in authorities is key in these sorts of situations. Fauci seems like a decent guy, but he can't unite a country that's been at it's own throat for years. A great amount of people might know that fox is but a propaganda machine for Trump, but the minority not in that category is enough to cause problems. That's why it would be adament for Trump to follow Fauci's lead rather than spew lies as if his opinion is somehow in the same league.
* no division or partizanship but nationalism. Sort of the same point but on a national level. To this day, Trump not only refuses to take a lead over the governors of the state, but seems to play them out against them. Okay: that last part might not be active, but really: companies are sharks everywhere. When I hear reports on face masks being withheld despite being properly ordered, I smell price gauging ("okay, you've got a decent order. But why would we deliver to YOU if HE pays me more?"). You'll need active discouraging on that sort of business and make sure it's not hollow words but acts as well(3)


Unfortunately, the time to solve these issues is (mostly) up. At this point, the USA is the world's worst pupil so far in reaction to this crisis. The scale of increase is larger than Italy and Spain. And...at this point I can't be bothered to argue clowns who disagree. Why should I? I fucking HOPE they are right. Because the situation in Italy and Spain is beyond human. These are well developed countries with decent health care systems and a healthy population. Now they're overcrowded. Patients line up in corridors because there aren't enough beds. Ventilators that help the breathing are a massive shortage. One nurse even committed suicide because she caught the virus and accidentally spread it around.

Does this sound familiar? Why yes, it IS the same situation as New York. But as harsh as that is...why isn't the rest of the country taking notice? The EU states are far less connected, but we help out the countries in need pretty much without question. But in the US? Besides these horror stories from NY, the beaches in Florida are still open for spring break. Am I missing something here? Is this really a scam to get rid of old people or something? Heck...I might hate Trump, but even I don't want him to get infected.

The most recent prediction by experts is between 100'000 and 240'000 deaths in the USA. Again: at this point I don't really give a damn whether or not you heard someone calling that number exagerated. I'm here to tell you that your virus increase is sharper than both Italy and Spain. If your health care system was as good as them you'd have similar results in a couple weeks tops. As it is...it'll be worse.


And sorry for being dr. Doom here, but I didn't call this piece "Is America screwed?" because of these deaths. It's because the virus has a mortality rate of 1 to 3.4%, depending on how you count it. The latter number is an estimate based on diseased patients vs all tested patients...but due to shortages, ONLY PEOPLE SICK ENOUGH TO GO TO A HOSPITAL GET TESTED! And that means you'll be looking at roughly FIFTY times that amount that need to be hospitalized, so between five and ten million people. All within less than a month from now.

I...have to admit I don't know where that number is based on. I really hope it's taking everything into account, because when a hospital (or rather: all hospitals) have to take on this amount of people, medical errors are prone to happening.

My company lived through the 2016 bombings in Brussels relatively easy. Not that it WAS easy (we own many stores in the airport), but because we're a multinational, the other countries took our fall. This is already much worse, exactly because it's not just affecting ALL our stores but all the ones in the rest of Europe as well. The economic collapse on this will be huge, and that is calculated if the corona virus itself will suddenly disappear worldwide today (which it won't...the fallout could take years before everything is even remotely back to normal).

So...there's that. Huge ass precautions we should be making just to do basic work...provided our companies don't go belly-up before that. Don't get me wrong: it'll be tough for every nation on this planet. But I'm (unfortunately) also confident it'll strike hardest at the country that gets hit hardest with the virus.

*sigh*

I'll quit making political posts. Sure, I can say "guess you should have picked a competent leader when you had the chance, eh? :tpi:"...but I can't be bothered anymore. I (and the rest of Belgium with me) have my (our) own shit to take care of. At best, in about 10 years we'll look back at this and compare this outbreak to the fall of the Berlin wall (except it ushered in the end of capitalism when it was at its worst). At worst...I don't want to think about it...


EDIT: right...totally forgot about the UK (thanks @FAST6191 ). When I heard about their initial strategy, I thought it was a grimm april fool's joke. Because their plan came down to "we're not going to do anything". Sure it had some science fiction story about it, but again: it came down to "not doing anything". Yes, they've changed course, but I honestly can't fathom why they'd think that nonsense would work in the first place. I mean...really?
The idea was something called "herd immunity". If enough people get sick (and get better), they're later better equipped with dealing with the disease. As such, they would have an economic advantage over countries that went into hiding and that could STILL catch the virus afterward because being in hiding obviously doesn't grant you immunity.
Perhaps on paper this sort of practice could be defended, but this is A DEADLY VIRUS. Even with a small mortality rate, you end up with many thousands of deaths, which would have been quite literally sacrificed for an economy that is at best a "same old, same old". An even worse flaw is the incredibly huge infection rate, which would overload any medical facility attempting to pursuit that strategy.
Again: they've walked away from that excuse of a strategy. Not sure if they expect a pat on the back of not remaining retarded, but ey...at least they're doing better now.




(1): Flanders speaks Dutch, Wallonia is French
(2): the original lockdown was until april 5th. But it's been extended for two more weeks, and it's likely that two more weeks will be added (at least partial)
(3): extra note: this is much easier said than done. In Belgium, for example, the police are considering a strike because they can't get face masks. However, the politicians stay firm: the medical sector needs them first and foremost.
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You promised to get to what the UK did wrong but did not get there.

Anyway screwed? Doubt it. Too much momentum and things to cannibalise before it is properly over on that front.
Big hit to the system? Most likely. Pretty bad time for it as well.
 
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Holy wall of text Taleweaver - I thought you were that notimp dude for a second there!

Sweden says hi - you can google that one while still whinging about the beach being open in Florida (with, I assume/might add, at least some form of social distancing in place)
Hate to bring figures into a debate as grave as this but:
Belgium: population ~11.5million. 17,000 cases
USA: population ~330million. 245,000 cases
(UK: population ~70million. 34,000 cases)
I fail to see what your nation is doing so right that the US in turn is doing so wrong.... But let's try to focus on how to collectively beat it rather than some 'my dad is better than yours' scenario ehh...
 
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USA since last decades live profits for Warfares: selling mass destruction weapons, aircrafts to conflicted countries and always hungers of oil, now both Russia and china with growing global influence (China over Africa and Iran plus Russia over Venezuela), USA has been almost cutted out from oil/dollar monopoly.
Yep USA need deep changes, or pick another country which has oil.

@Ev1l0rd facepalm, expected USA dind't think twice to backstab the alliies!
 
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hi, boots on the ground here and frontline worker.
The situation depends on the state that you are living in. CA has actually managed to blunt the hell out of the pandemic (numbers are increasing as we are in the outbreak phase, but the exponential rate has slowed down for us) While in contrast NY is just an all out warzone at the moment. Quite frankly the dow jones is gonna have a massive freakout in the next two weeks as the the patient counts are gonna go really up in the next 14 days or so. The news loves a constant bad story but the truth is atleast things are finally rolling in from the national stockpile and private industries have started to help. The shortage or respirators is gonna be a big problem in the weeks to come but PPE is starting to hit albeit slowly. In reality this country is where it should have been 3 weeks ago, which unfortunately was critical time. I may do a blogpost entertaining questions a little later today.

On a side note I got COVID tested yesterday and im awaiting results. LA has ramped up testing where its somewhat reasonable now.

also the other part that should be encouraging is our death rate (266,279 active cases only 2.4%)
country may have been sucker punched but we are not down by any means.
 
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I can only comment on my home state of California. The picture isn't as rosy as it's being portrayed here. There's a backlog of 60,000 tests that have been administered but haven't been completed yet (ie, no results) due to poor testing management. We've actually only completed 33,000 tests to date. New York state has already completed 238,000 with no known backlog.

In my town you still need to have a fever over 100 F and have other COVD-19 symptoms before you can even get tested. We have a population of around 160,000 people but have only done 1,300 tests to date. By all accounts it's the same everywhere else in California. People can't get tested, and the tests being administered apparently aren't even being completed.

TL;DR: California isn't doing enough testing to say for sure that we're doing that well. We've only completed 33K tests total.
 
I don't understand why you're puffing up Belgium as the great example and pissing on the United States as the nightmare scenario. Belgium is #3 in coronavirus deaths per capita after Italy and Spain.



@Ev1l0rd -

France seized entire stock (6M) of masks from Swedish producer, intended for Spain/Italy.

https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=7444848

https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2020/04/03/france-forced-to-return-face-masks-it-confiscated-from-spain-a-few-weeks-ago-after-pressure-from-the-swedish-government/
 
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@ChiefReginod its not great by any stretch but we are doing well by comparison to new york at this time. Tests are ramping up atleast in the LA area, however we do Need waaaay faster turn arounds and capacity. you are correct on that end. I cant speak on test turn around times but given that i got tested yesterday, i will reply as soon as i get my results.

@leon315 the death rate is higher with equipment shortages and we are just shy behind that. My whole point is that things have not taken a turn for the worse in all states.
 
Whoa...some comments. I gotta admit it doesn't surprise me. :P

@FAST6191 : I've added a part in the main text.

@The Real Jdbye : I don't normally do TL;DR's (you shouldn't be here replying if you can't be bothered to read), but since this is an easy: here you go:

TL;DR: is the USA screwed? Yes.

@mightymuffy : sorry but those numbers don't mean that much because Belgium got our first patients earlier.


@Hanafuda: I'm talking about Belgium because that's where I live. I see the effects on people and (again) we watch the local news all the time.

You're certainly right, yes: we do have a grimm third spot in deaths when taking the population into account. The "why" on that is being researched, because when it comes to the total infections (also per capita) we're not in such a bad position. We're not South Korea or Japan, but the influx of patients is (for now) somewhat stabilized.
 
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ultimately all civilisations are doomed, it is only a matter of time. its for the best from anything other than the human point of view, and humans are not the most important thing in the universe. it’s all just nature doing what nature does, it’s normal and it’s ok.
 
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"Perhaps on paper this sort of practice could be defended, but this is A DEADLY VIRUS."
There are plenty of deadly things and things with deadly side effects we allow. Is this so much worse than anything else as to make that such an untenable course of action?

arcanine ultimately all civilisations are doomed said:
I would be OK with humans, or their AI created by them, seeding the stars (or turning the stars off and using the matter and energy far more efficiently) and see no need to roll over and die giving entropy an easy early win.
 
@FAST6191 i was not suggesting we should simply accept it without resistance, that would contradict the survival instinct. i just meant that the answer to the question is “yes”, because the collapse of all civilisations is inevitable. It really doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things when or how it happens so we just have to make the best of it
 
*sighs* IDK, and frankly, I don't care to read through your posts atm. I know you're speaking from the perspective of a European, and honestly, I'm kind of sick and tired of people commenting on things that:

1. Don't affect them that much in their day-to-day lives.
2. Things that they haven't experienced or dealt with, or taken the time to listen to the other side of the argument that may have points and merits that they may not have considered before.
3. And the typical "orange man bad" logic. I'm no Trumpkin by any means, but honestly give me a fucking break at this point. He won in 2016, fair and square, they tried to impeach him, cancel Kavanaugh, and everything else in between while Trump has brought gas prices down the lowest I've ever seen them in my life, and, until the leftist media started instilling panic (some of it justified, perhaps, but "OMG-WE-NEED-TO-BUY-ENTIRE-AISLES-OF-TOILET-PAPER-AND-DISINFECTANT-WIPES-AND-SPRAYS" bad?) about the coronavirus, the economy was doing far better than it ever did for Obama, contrary to this constant drivel I see online just to support getting something for nothing.

For as much as people look down on minimum wage jobs, as of right now, we're the only ones who are guaranteed to have a job at this point because I get the things that people absolutely need in society to the shelves along with others in my department. I'm going to tell you that the only reason these jobs are hard is because of people having shitty attitudes because they're dependent upon substances they don't need to help them live in their day-to-day lives, they hate having to do hard, manual labor when that's what these jobs are, and they could have gone to any college or trade school to get a better paying and more rewarding job that, may I remind you, is also a more essential job than your degree in philosophy, psychology, sociology, etc., and they hate other people telling them what to do. Sure, you have difficult customers and other instances of BS that happen every now and then, but honestly, other people in a starter job is what makes it so bad. If you can tolerate that, if one can stand sacrificing some time to make some quick money to satisfy their wants and then focus on moving out and learning how to manage money, then you can learn to stand on your own two legs as opposed to being a goddamn victim complaining about why the government doesn't give someone handouts when to ask that question is to lack an understanding of where money comes from, the responsibilities involved with accruing debt, and the potential long term consequences of an entire nation borrowing so much that they're trillions in debt.

I understand that these programs do help people who are disadvantaged, and sure, that's not a bad thing by any means, but research has shown that support from private institutions, family, friends, and just a community driven by true altruism as opposed to altruism with a gun barrel or a subpoena behind it as enforcement is much more effective than fucking spending one's way into debt oblivion! Which is why I think, as much as I might appreciate being able to pay off a certain $6,000+ student loan bill off sooner rather than later (and some smaller bills after that), it's a shame that the media fear frenzy they got everyone worked into is why I have very little regard for news outlets these days as opposed to independent reporters getting news straight from the ground raw and with no editing to paint things in a light that the organization wants to portray certain things as. Both Fox News and CNN do this btw, so don't go accusing yours truly of some persecution complex because that's part of what's led to the divide in the US that is ultimately driven by actions that had fear driven behind them.
 

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