Covid-19 vaccine

[tabzer]

The use of the survey was relevant and was not ridiculous. I am sorry if the results of the survey are inconvenient for you.

The misrepresenting of the survey was ridiculous. I did nothing to contest the results.

I am from the United States.

And I've mentioned that the vaccine appreciation in Japan is not so high several times now, a point I have made several times now in response to your 96% figure.

Did you have a point?

That physicians are physicians even if you don't like them.

It is verifiable fact that unvaccinated people are far more likely than their vaccinated counterparts to contract COVID-19, suffer severe illness after contracting COVID-19, die from COVID-19, and spread COVID-19. I have already provided evidence for these facts. If you are going to argue that these statements are wrong, you must provide evidence.

Statistical approaches are nice, but they don't embody an individual's choices. Not getting vaccinated is not deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses.

 

[Lacius]

antifa had its start in Germany.

Antifa started in opposition to fascism and Nazism. This is also off-topic.

 

[tabzer]

The CDC has not explicitly said there is a moral imperative to get vaccinated, but they and the broader medical community have provided enough evidence that there is a moral imperative to get vaccinated

That's your conclusion. Don't confuse it with facts.

One radical think you said was when you claimed unvaccinated people are not far more likely than their vaccinated counterparts to contract COVID-19, suffer severe illness after contracting COVID-19, die from COVID-19, and spread COVID-19.

I said that not getting vaccinated doesn't increase odds. The odds only decrease if you get vaccinated.

That's logical fact.

 

[Lacius]

The misrepresenting of the survey was ridiculous. I did nothing to contest the results.

I am glad then that you acknowledge the data from the survey that shows broad support for the COVID-19 vaccines from the medical community.

And I've mentioned that the vaccine appreciation in Japan is not so high several times now, a point I have made several times now in response to your 96% figure.

I am unaware of any data that suggests doctors and/or medical agencies in Japan are broadly opposed to the COVID-19 vaccines. If you have a specific point to make, make it and provide evidence for it.

The fact remains that virtually every reputable medical agency I am aware of acknowledges the COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective, and they recommend vaccination.

That physicians are physicians even if you don't like them.

I didn't argue that some physicians aren't physicians just because I don't like them. I argued that citing the results of a survey from a small cherry-picked group of physicians doesn't demonstrate anything meaningful, and it doesn't contradict anything I've said. As far as anybody can tell, the results of the survey you cited can be true (and are even likely to be true) even if 96% of all doctors in the United States have been vaccinated and support COVID-19 vaccination.

In other words, given the nature of your survey and the group it comes from, its results are irrelevant even if true.

Not getting vaccinated is not deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses.

It is a fact that deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting and embracing relatively higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus.

That's your conclusion. Don't confuse it with facts.

It's both my conclusion and a fact.

I said that not getting vaccinated doesn't increase odds. The odds only decrease if you get vaccinated.

When I said, "Deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus," you said, "nuh uh."

Deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting and embracing relatively higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus. That is a fact, and that is what makes choosing to be unvaccinated an immoral choice. It's also a stupid choice, considering vaccination is also in your own best interest. Do you disagree that deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting and embracing relatively higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus?

It is verifiable fact that unvaccinated people are far more likely than their vaccinated counterparts to contract COVID-19, suffer severe illness after contracting COVID-19, die from COVID-19, and spread COVID-19.

 

[RocaBOT]

Dear god you guys are still trying to discuss with that individual, I'm impressed.
It's quite clear they won't change as the only thing they ever were able to say on this thread is "absence of facts" and "your conclusions," along with very very "alt facts" sources the very few times they ever linked something.
It's clear they have no understanding of how vaccines work, which has been how they worked for as long as they exist. They have no idea what "prevention" is, and spread misinformation here based on false claims that all "beliefs" are equal when clearly, one that puts more people in danger than its competitors is morally wrong.
For my part, I'll let them play victims and claim they are being coerced or bullied or whatever, if they really were they wouldn't be here to claim it, they'd take actual actions. Love you for trying to beat some sense into people like that though, it's clearly commendable <3

 

[Lacius]

Dear god you guys are still trying to discuss with that individual, I'm impressed.
It's quite clear they won't change as the only thing they ever were able to say on this thread is "absence of facts" and "your conclusions," along with very very "alt facts" sources the very few times they ever linked something.
It's clear they have no understanding of how vaccines work, which has been how they worked for as long as they exist. They have no idea what "prevention" is, and spread misinformation here based on false claims that all "beliefs" are equal when clearly, one that puts more people in danger than its competitors is morally wrong.
For my part, I'll let them play victims and claim they are being coerced or bullied or whatever, if they really were they wouldn't be here to claim it, they'd take actual actions. Love you for trying to beat some sense into people like that though, it's clearly commendable <3

I do not respond to @tabzer for tabzer's sake. I respond to tabzer for everyone else who has the misfortune of reading what tabzer posts.

 

[BitMasterPlus]

No one is going to force you to stop being stupid

Neither to you.

you really sound like a stable genius and not crazy at all...

Takes one to know one.

 

[LumInvader]

I didn't conceal anything.

As previously stated, tabzer concealed the size disparity between AMA and the "demographic" he chose to source, fallaciously presenting AAPS as an equivalent sized voice.

Lacius used a single survey to suggest that 96% physicians have taken and recommend the vaccine. That simply isn't true nor is it a natural conclusion based on facts. I responded with a survey with different physicians showing different results and made no claim about the size of the bandwagon--only that it was irresponsible to make broad claims based on a survey that you saw..

As previously stated, tabzer responded with a survey from the wacky right-wing AAPS, an organization that is not recognized as credible by the medical community and barred from major medical indexes; thus, it's surveys aren't recognized as credible or representative of most physicians.

You initially discredited the survey of physicians because you didn't like those physicians, which is literally cherry picking facts. After being called out on it, you are working overtime to save face. Sorry, but I find nothing in your response that supports the initial false claim of misrepresenting the meaning of a single survey. If @Lacius can support his claim with real evidence, then tat would be interesting..

The AAPS is a statistically irrelevant organization that pushes junk science. Their "survey" is not relevant in any way shape or form. Their survey is not a credible counter-point to the AMA survey. tabzer pushes their survey, not because it's relevant, but because it's the only rebuttal he could dig up on Google. It's quite sad, really.

Lacius brought up multiple disturbing allegations regarding AAPS; tabzer ignored them all. I brought up multiple disturbing allegations regarding the AAPS; tabzer ignored them all. It's been clear from the beginning that tabzer's goal is to gaslight the topic -- not to have a discussion while forming conclusions based on science, honesty, and common sense.

 

[ut2k4master]

Takes one to know one.

cool meme response

 

[tabzer]

I am glad then that you agree with me that they survey shows broad support for the COVID-19 vaccines from the medical community.

The survey shows, maybe, a broad innoculation of doctors that have membership. Nothing to do with recommendation, which you inserted. Not demonstrated to be free of coercion either.

I didn't argue that some physicians aren't physicians just because I don't like them. I argued that citing the results of a survey from a small cherry-picked group of physicians doesn't demonstrate anything meaningful, and it doesn't contradict anything I've said. As far as anybody can tell, the results of the survey you cited can be true (and are even likely to be true) even if 96% of all doctors in the United States have been vaccinated and support COVID-19 vaccination.

Right all of that could be true, but I'm still waiting for the evidence.

It's both my conclusion and a fact.

Your conclusion is not a fact.

Deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting higher base odds of contracting and spreading the virus

I am glad that you agree with me that not getting vaccinated is not deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses.

 

[BitMasterPlus]

cool meme response

thx brah

 

[LumInvader]

Hey Lacius,

I believe tabzer may be trying to hypnotize us.

 

[notimp]

Why are you calling covid an influenza virus? While both corona viruses and influenza viruses use RNA, a shit ton of viruses use RNA, including HIV and Ebola, which thankfully both have very low mutation rates. Influenza viruses are elipsoidal Orthomyxoviridae, and corona viruses are ball-shaped Orthocoronavirinae. They are unrelated viruses. You cannot draw any conclusions about corona virus mutation rates by comparing them to influenza viruses.

I bunched them together because of mutation dynamics (droplet / aerosol bound propagation path, and relatively high case infection rates > leads to the need of annual/semi annual changes in vaccine candidates).

I've learned more than a year ago, that this would be a dynamic we'd have to deal with, that would be similar to influenza pandemics.

If that made me bunch them together as 'the same' by accident, I welcome the correction. But this is what I tried to express.

edit: Just checked, I bunched them in as 'the same', and thats wrong. So thank you for the correction.

edit2: Added a correction to the initial posting.

 

[tabzer]

As previously stated, tabzer concealed the size disparity between AMA and the "demographic" he chose to source, fallaciously presenting AAPS as an equivalent sized voice.

As previously stated, tabzer responded with a survey from the wacky right-wing AAPS, an organization that is not recognized as credible by the medical community and barred from major medical indexes; thus, it's surveys aren't recognized as credible or representative of most physicians.

The AAPS is a statistically irrelevant organization that pushes junk science. Their "survey" is not relevant in any way shape or form. Their survey is not a credible counter-point to the AMA survey. tabzer pushes their survey, not because it's relevant, but because it's the only rebuttal he could dig up on Google. It's quite sad, really.

Lacius brought up multiple disturbing allegations regarding AAPS; tabzer ignored them all. I brought up multiple disturbing allegations regarding the AAPS; tabzer ignored them all. It's been clear from the beginning that tabzer's goal is to gaslight the topic -- not to have a discussion while forming conclusions based on science, honesty, and common sense.

Hi Lum. Do you just want to tell me that some physicians are not physicians or did you want to write a wall-of-text pretending that isn't what you are doing.

 

[The Catboy]

Neither to you.


Takes one to know one.

Nah, dude. There’s a huge difference between someone listening to medical professionals vs someone who thinks being asked to consider the health of others is “forcing them.” No one is forcing you to get the vaccine but that doesn’t mean people should respect you nor your action. It also doesn’t mean that you are free from being criticized and being called out on your stupidity. Simply put, anti-vaxxors are stupid and they are a massive problem. Diseases that were once considered rare or even nearly eliminated have started to spread again because of anti-vaxxors. Covid is still spreading because people are refusing to get the vaccines. Anti-vaxxors are dangerous idiots who are deliberately ignoring actual professionals because they believe some stupid conspiracy they heard about on YouTube or something stupid like that.

 

[Lacius]

The survey shows, maybe, a broad innoculation of doctors that have membership.

Which was my point.

Nothing to do with recommendation

It doesn't have "nothing" to do with recommendation, and there are other surveys that do explicitly mention recommendation and comport with my previously mentioned numbers.

Right all of that could be true, but I'm still waiting for the evidence.

I have already demonstrated that your survey data is cherry-picked and only shows the views of an already cherry-picked group that is political, and predisposed to being against vaccinations, not medical. I have also already demonstrated that your numbers comport with the data I have already provided. In other words, according to the AMA survey I've provided, approximately 4% of doctors have not been vaccinated yet, and every member of your fringe right-wing political advocacy group (vaccinated or not) could fit in that 4% with room to spare.

You should also reread the post by @LumInvader about how your posts have been in bad-faith with regard to the topic of the
Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, because he was very specific, and I could not have put it better myself.

Your conclusion is not a fact.

Something is not a fact automatically just because it is my conclusion, but in this case, my conclusion is a fact. If you want to argue why it isn't a fact and provide evidence for your argument, instead of replying "nuh uh" over and over again, please let me know.

I am glad that you agree with me that not getting vaccinated is not deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses.

Willfully being unvaccinated is willfully accepting higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus. It is willfully allowing an increased spread of the virus.

Hi Lum. Do you just want to tell me that some physicians are not physicians or did you want to write a wall-of-text pretending that isn't what you are doing.

He never said anybody wasn't a physician, and he made a lot of really good points about your bad-faith arguments. If all you're going to do is ignore us when we counter your claims, there probably isn't any reason to keep this conversation going. I'm going to assume that means you've conceded our points, or that they're too hard for you to refute (which in a way is a tacit concession).

 

[notimp]

I am glad that you agree with me that not getting vaccinated is not deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses.

I think you read that wrong... It definitely is.

Its just that we can and will only employ peer pressure and not 'actual pressure' to convince you societally.

Actual pressure, if you work in the medical field, maybe. (Get shot, or loose job.) Outside that - not very likely.

Do you just want to tell me that some physicians are not physicians or did you want to write a wall-of-text pretending that isn't what you are doing.

He only wants to go a step further, in explaining to you, that you dont end arguments with 'a physician said so'.

Especially not - if you 'do a survey of physicians'. All you get in that case even in the most perfect of circumstances is an 'expert intuition'. Which is another word for 'an opinion based on a feeling'. If you are immersing yourself in a field for a long time, you start to produce shortcuts in thinking, based on prior experiences you had. Thats what you call 'expert intuition' (and sometimes even expert opinion), and its basically a quick way of coming to a judgement, which interestingly is shown to be wrong quite often - in about 50% of the cases or so.

So then you take that, and ask people, that maybe arent experts in virology. And people in the 'fringe science club against vaccinations, because of religious (or personal ) believes. And then you publish that. And then you've covered all opinions equally. Being 'a physician' doesnt mean, you are thorough all the time, rational, all the time, free of moral imperatives and unfailing. Its just a title.

So you have other structures to hopefully reach better judgement odds than 50/50, by f.e. making sure they are immersed in their fields and thorough, by telling them that they have their work peer reviewed. And you have 'pressures' called scientific canon - which means that thats what the majority that makes up the curriculum (= the stuff that is taught in medical school) believes. That also has its own problems and biases. (Mostly when someone comes along that pronounces "you are wrong entirely", and is correct.. But if they are actually correct, and published, other scholars usually should get interested in proving or disproving their theories, because - hey at least its interesting, and you can make a name for yourself doing so.) That said 'vaccinations are dangerous, and dont work' is not a perspective that is in that position.

At all.

On an individual level, from someone who experienced people with heavy side effects as a result maybe. But all that does is bring us into the discussion about 'statistical safety' vs. 'individual safety'. And statistical safety always wins out - if it produces more (societal) good than harm. But the individual risk, is on the individual. (We just tell you how likely the risk is (one in thousand, one in a million, ..)). The individual has to make the decision. (In western democracies.)

So before becoming a wall of text.

The next question to the argument you bring is - what physicians did you ask (then producing evidence regarding whether they are legitimate representatives of the majority view or not (canon)), and why did you ask them for opinions anyhow? You can ask them for studies instead. (More concise and better odds of being correct, than 'expert opinion'). As the question you are asking is not abstract, and can be answered through studies and not surveys.


Or in short - the "I asked people in white coats, and this is what they said" argument usually is frowned upon (in science), if not attached to a system that makes sure, they put real effort in their answer and are not telling you the first thing that comes to mind.

And 'cherrypicking' is a valid counter - because for surveys to have any value at all, you cant just only ask the people in the 'skeptical fringe communities'. In addition to opinion surveys being problematic in the first place.


edit:

I'm roughly referencing Kahneman, btw. (Among others) Here, watch this:


Which for some reason is on amazons youtube channel, because they are flogging social responsibility or something..

edit: Oh, because they are mangling the actual argument Kahneman makes - normally he doesnt end with 'try to find experts to provide guidance... . He goes into this: https://www.thinkadvisor.com/2018/1...-trust-your-intuition-even-for-stock-picking/


edit2: Also read this if you are interested: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-we-rely-on-our-intuition/

 

[Alexander1970]

You're absolutely right!

I really hope the Vaccines are safe as EVERYBODY says..
I really hope it for all Females/Girls or whatever....
I really hope they (can) get Children one Day....
I really hope there are no Side Effects....
I really,really hope it from the Bottom of my Heart for you all and your coming Childs............





But on the Other Side:

You can make it Mandatory to "dispose" malformed and terminally ill Children.....

Oh,yes,please......now cry a little about this Statement......




.....please think beforehand before you make things mandatory.....

 

[MMX]

antifa had its start in Germany.

this'll lead you eventually to the one truth.

 

[SG854]

I do not respond to @tabzer for tabzer's sake. I respond to tabzer for everyone else who has the misfortune of reading what tabzer posts.

The evidence and sources you link is very helpful for people who aren't tabzer. Especially people who are in good faith and haven't put aside time to research this topic and we're iffy about it in the beginning. It made them more comfortable on the safety of the vaccine and also other good reasons on why people should get vaccinated and how unvaccinated people are bad for the people around them. Your comments is more for them then for Tabzer.

Without Tabzer then your comments in extreme detail wouldn't have happened so in a way Tabzer is helping pushing more people to be comfortable with the covid vaccine. Their crazines is getting people to think I don't want to be like this idiot i'm getting the vaccine.