Pokémon - The Battle Between Legitimacy and Legality

[gundambot]

First of all, there is no such thing as 'legal' or legality' - it's some term cheaters made up to rationalize their cheating.
It's either legitimate (or real) or it's not. Period.
That's the way players are (officially) asked to play the game. That's the only way the game should be played.
When you ignore the rules of the gameplay, then there is no game.

I mean of course, cheating is possible (and present) in many things in life. But everyone strifes for fairness, because everyone understands that, the best possible outcome for all is still when as many participants plays fairly as possible.

So the fact this discussion taking place is even possible (and the discussion itself), is kind of moot - it pretty much argues that cheating is suitable.
Note that the stance in the discussion goes further than saying cheating should be embraced and tolerated, as it is present.*
But the argument is saying that 'cheating is good' and should be part of the game.
* (it is aware that in the last world championships, both the Japanese national champion/worlds runner-up, and the Korean champion/1st place undefeated after swiss, have Pokemon in their teams obtained with cheats, i.e. impossible pid/iv combination)

**I played competitively and have gotten top 8 and top 4 at regional championships while having Pokemon on my team obtained via RNG. And in all fairness, I consider myself have cheated. So please note it's not like I'm taking some 'higher moral ground' in this.

Here are a few of the arguments towards this made up 'legality' thing that I have read, (i.e. they typically fall into these patterns):

- "XXX is not cheating/hacking. It's just a time-saver."
The 'time saver' argument. The 'I don't have that much time' or 'they should make ___ system simpler', type of deal.
Well, ALL cheats are "time-savers". People wouldn't cheat to spend more effort/time...
This isn't an argument. It's an excuse, an excuse for not spending/willing to spend the amount of time others have to play the game fairly.
Note that if this is an valid argument, then it can be used the same to justify any type and any amount of cheating in just about everything...

- "Legal" cheats are fine because all the parameters are within normal, obtainable range.
I usually hate making analogies since they're usually nothing like what you're comparing to and makes the argument weaker...but
Thinking of 'legal' hacks as money stolen from someone or rubbed from a bank (or what have you..). As opposed to counterfeit bills, the money one has gotten this way has nothing wrong with them compared to real ones - but the act itself is still wrong.
The fact that the properties/stats of the Pokemon created with cheats is normal have nothing to do with cheating being right or wrong.
The apparent 'rightness' of the product obtained, speaks nothing of the rightness of the method by which it's obtained.

- "If Nintendo/Gamefreak wants everyone to play fair they should've implemented better checks. / As long as this isn't in place, I'm ok with cheats."
The "i'm doing it because I can get away with it" excuse.
I hope we can all see how this argument pretty much defeats itself....

Most of all, "legal Pokemon"/cheats renders an entire aspect of the muti-play pointless - trading.
There is no longer any point to trading when everything could just be 'created' with cheats. When it's no longer distinguishable between the fake created with cheats and the innate of value of the real ones.


I hope we can all agree that, the best multiplayer environment we've had so far, was the few pre-bank XY months - when it is (generally) not possible to cheat at all. When everyone could trade and battle without worrying about whether your opponent has cheated or the Pokemon you got in trades is legit or real. There was not even any issues or the need for this discussion, until cheating is present and affecting the experience of players negatively.
(I am aware that the signal checker existed when it did, and players did use it to cheat...which is unfortunate..)

 

[FAST6191]

First of all, there is no such thing as 'legal' or legality' - it's some term cheaters made up to rationalize their cheating.
It's either legitimate (or real) or it's not. Period.
That's the way players are (officially) asked to play the game. That's the only way the game should be played.
When you ignore the rules of the gameplay, then there is no game.

I mean of course, cheating is possible (and present) in many things in life. But everyone strifes for fairness, because everyone understands that, the best possible outcome for all is still when as many participants plays fairly as possible.

So the fact this discussion taking place is even possible (and the discussion itself), is kind of moot - it pretty much argues that cheating is suitable.
Note that the stance in the discussion goes further than saying cheating should be embraced and tolerated, as it is present.*
But the argument is saying that 'cheating is good' and should be part of the game.
* (it is aware that in the last world championships, both the Japanese national champion/worlds runner-up, and the Korean champion/1st place undefeated after swiss, have Pokemon in their teams obtained with cheats, i.e. impossible pid/iv combination)

**I played competitively and have gotten top 8 and top 4 at regional championships while having Pokemon on my team obtained via RNG. And in all fairness, I consider myself have cheated. So please note it's not like I'm taking some 'higher moral ground' in this.

Here are a few of the arguments towards this made up 'legality' thing that I have read, (i.e. they typically fall into these patterns):

- "XXX is not cheating/hacking. It's just a time-saver."
The 'time saver' argument. The 'I don't have that much time' or 'they should make ___ system simpler', type of deal.
Well, ALL cheats are "time-savers". People wouldn't cheat to spend more effort/time...
This isn't an argument. It's an excuse, an excuse for not spending/willing to spend the amount of time others have to play the game fairly.
Note that if this is an valid argument, then it can be used the same to justify any type and any amount of cheating in just about everything...

- "Legal" cheats are fine because all the parameters are within normal, obtainable range.
I usually hate making analogies since they're usually nothing like what you're comparing to and makes the argument weaker...but
Thinking of 'legal' hacks as money stolen from someone or rubbed from a bank (or what have you..). As opposed to counterfeit bills, the money one has gotten this way has nothing wrong with them compared to real ones - but the act itself is still wrong.
The fact that the properties/stats of the Pokemon created with cheats is normal have nothing to do with cheating being right or wrong.
The apparent 'rightness' of the product obtained, speaks nothing of the rightness of the method by which it's obtained.

- "If Nintendo/Gamefreak wants everyone to play fair they should've implemented better checks. / As long as this isn't in place, I'm ok with cheats."
The "i'm doing it because I can get away with it" excuse.
I hope we can all see how this argument pretty much defeats itself....

Most of all, "legal Pokemon"/cheats renders an entire aspect of the muti-play pointless - trading.
There is no longer any point to trading when everything could just be 'created' with cheats. When it's no longer distinguishable between the fake created with cheats and the innate of value of the real ones.

It is cheating, sure. Is it necessarily a binary thing (in sports if a team screws up but the advantage is to the opposition or no net benefit it is often left to play on) and is that always and without question wrong?

"When you ignore the rules of the gameplay, then there is no game. "
No when you ignore the rules of the game you often end up with another game. Sure you are not playing the original game and as such comparing experiences gets tricky but there is still a game. See also "house rules".

What is fairness? As far as I am aware the only rules I am truly bound by are the rules of physics. Everything else is up for debate.

All cheats are not time savers. I often make cheats and hacks to make games harder or change the way they play at some level for it to be more fun for me.

"[time savers] then it can be used the same to justify any type and any amount of cheating in just about everything"

No it can not. Trouble is now we have to discuss what sort of game pokemon is using all the fun maths terms. My argument was that anybody (it does not take a ridiculous amount of time, any great amount of luck, quick reactions or any great mathematical, logical or literary skill) can have made a "perfect" team within the game by this point in time (others have claimed it is a couple of hours per mon, I am going with that). Other games may need skills in reactions, maths, logic.... to level or a time investment that is in the order of actual years of active play and those are a different type of game, not a great one necessarily to my mind but hey.
Alternatively why do I need to play the 30 hour entrance exam to proper random online play (and online play has tended to needing said perfect mons)?
Going back to the fairness thing I have access to all the same moves, all the same potential stats/abilities, all the same mons.....

"The apparent 'rightness' of the product obtained, speaks nothing of the rightness of the method by which it's obtained."
If that is how you feel then fair enough, it is not even a view all that strange to my mind (I would call it irrational and possibly nebulous but it is understandable. I am reminded of the end game speech of the first games that said words along the lines of "you won because you loved you pokemon" and the rather derisive snort my somewhat younger self made at that point, see also "heart of the cards in yugioh"). However going back to the rules of physics thing if the numbers are the same then the product is the same. If there is a "tainted" component then the numbers are not the same and as pokemon does not recognise said tainted stuff then the numbers are the same....

On Nintendo/GF actually having a clue about security.
There is a line of logic that says if you are broadcasting unencrypted data into a network I control/am responsible for I can take a peek. I assume that also takes care of glitches. Still I am not seeing anybody really argue that.

On trading. It might negate the need for someone to trade if they can generate. However we are back at the what makes the game thing. Some like the training game, some like the trading game, some like the story thing, some like doing artificial challenges within the story and some like the battling game (going for sports this might be the differences between shooting hoops and actually playing basketball). Most of the best battling happens with end stage mons with all the moves available to them.
Gamefreak could have made low level battles a thing, hell I saw just such an option in stadium years ago, but hey.

 

[lordofthereef]

Whether they should or shouldn't be allowed is irrelevant. A properly made "legal" monster is not going to be distinguishable from one that was legitimately bred/caught. GF would clearly like NOT to allow this. What is laughable, is that they failed to even ban the "obviously" illegal monsters.

There are a handful of things they could have done.
1. Make X and Y its own game, one that doesn't allow imports, but actually contains all of the pokemon (between the two titles). But some might not like this soooo.....
2. get rid of the stat thing altogether. Why should IVs even be a thing. Let my Charizard be the same as your Charizard 100% of the time, and allow skill (sometimes luck) decide the winner of the battle. GF's dream seems to be for all pokemon trainers to be Lance Armstrong biking all around. Ironic that even lance cheated though, huh?
3. Make their own 3DS app that lets you create and import pokemon. It was inevitable anyway, wasn't it? Honestly, the way these monster's data is built, they will not be able to ban an externally generated monster if the person creating the monster did his/her homework. They simply won't and no amount of talking will convince me otherwise. Believing that they could somehow detect this is admitting that one doesn't understand the data that actually makes up a pokemon.

 

[donaldgx]

Yes, this pokemons should be allowed, just like it should be possible to start any other mmorpg and have a maxed character with the best possible armament within a day, heck i should be given one the first moment i log onto one.

 

[FAST6191]

Yes, this pokemons should be allowed, just like it should be possible to start any other mmorpg and have a maxed character with the best possible armament within a day, heck i should be given one the first moment i log onto one.

Is that a good comparison though? I have to have timing/reactions to play most MMORPGS, the time investment is quite literally up in the thousands of hours where you have to be properly dedicated to do it and the games usually still allow for lower level play (they kind of have to or they would not have anybody still paying/playing).

Pokemon is arguably a different sort of game -- no timings/skill/reactions needed to breed other than so much press A, the time investment is "long weekend" or a few hours per mon (to the point where everybody can easily get there) and though it is a bit more nebulous (assuming my "some just like the high level battle aspect/game" argument from earlier does not fly) the battle stuff tends immediately towards as good as it gets mons.

 

[DaniPoo]

Quite sad to see this even if that Lugia is real it's probably cloned since he doesnt seem to have any problem with cloning.
And that was only one example...

 

[Hozu]

"When you ignore the rules of the gameplay, then there is no game. "
No when you ignore the rules of the game you often end up with another game. Sure you are not playing the original game and as such comparing experiences gets tricky but there is still a game. See also "house rules".

Except when you're playing online against other players via Battle Spot, you're agreeing to play by a set of rules that disallows Pokémon that were edited/created by third party tools. Furthermore, if a different set of rules were to be used, both players would have to agree upon it. In most cases, it's one player forcing their rule-breaking Pokémon upon another person without their consent or knowledge.

 

[nryn99]

Agreeable enough as long as we are talking about a broadly symmetrical game (some people are naturally stronger, smarter, more dexterous....). However I am not sure I can respect the grinding/levelling part of it, by all means have it as a component in the game and I can even see people enjoying it but as far as my respecting it well enough to diss those that would skip it then not so much.

Well, I don't really respect the grinding people that much, in fact, I myself cheat in most games because it's tiring. But I acknowledge that it was a cheat.
I'm not really against legal pokemon, but just that I don't think legal pokemon has the right to be beside legitimate ones because legal ones weren't following the game's rules.

If I can restore a save is that cheating or acceptable?

To me, it is cheating, and acceptable, as long as you don't put yourself in the same pedestal as someone who made very less mistakes or accepted his mistakes and turned it around back up.

 

[hhs]

Any game that rewards time spent rather than skill acquired has crap priorities. That's why I prefer showdown to the actual game. I can play fast, set up fast, and engage in the battle of wits or as close to it as possible in this game format.

People who want a game that rewards time spent are largely people who are awful who just want an advantage. Despite the fact that I don't respect that, I'm still kind enough to take my instant battling to a simulator.

 

[nryn99]

It is cheating, sure. Is it necessarily a binary thing (in sports if a team screws up but the advantage is to the opposition or no net benefit it is often left to play on) and is that always and without question wrong?

Because it falls upon the rules. Rules do change over time though so if one feels it is wrong, then some change of rules might be needed. Which is maybe why we have this discussion.

What is fairness? As far as I am aware the only rules I am truly bound by are the rules of physics. Everything else is up for debate.

Think of it as how humans "flew." We are flying but is still bound the the laws of physics using resources available within the rules of physics' boundaries. Comparable to RNG abuse. If someone however, can fly without following the rules of physics, then it's cheating.

"[time savers] then it can be used the same to justify any type and any amount of cheating in just about everything"

No it can not. Trouble is now we have to discuss what sort of game pokemon is using all the fun maths terms. My argument was that anybody (it does not take a ridiculous amount of time, any great amount of luck, quick reactions or any great mathematical, logical or literary skill) can have made a "perfect" team within the game by this point in time (others have claimed it is a couple of hours per mon, I am going with that). Other games may need skills in reactions, maths, logic.... to level or a time investment that is in the order of actual years of active play and those are a different type of game, not a great one necessarily to my mind but hey.
Alternatively why do I need to play the 30 hour entrance exam to proper random online play (and online play has tended to needing said perfect mons)?
Going back to the fairness thing I have access to all the same moves, all the same potential stats/abilities, all the same mons.....

"The apparent 'rightness' of the product obtained, speaks nothing of the rightness of the method by which it's obtained."
If that is how you feel then fair enough, it is not even a view all that strange to my mind (I would call it irrational and possibly nebulous but it is understandable. I am reminded of the end game speech of the first games that said words along the lines of "you won because you loved you pokemon" and the rather derisive snort my somewhat younger self made at that point, see also "heart of the cards in yugioh"). However going back to the rules of physics thing if the numbers are the same then the product is the same. If there is a "tainted" component then the numbers are not the same and as pokemon does not recognise said tainted stuff then the numbers are the same....

We could have said the exact same thing about duplicated or generated items in RF online Ph. Items popping out of nowhere. Everyone suddenly has the best sets and it became who can be focused on first. What used to be an mmorpg became something like fps maps.
Purging it wasn't easy because they were still valid by the game, eventually every upgraded items to a certain degree were wiped, legitimate or not. There were exceptions for those who have known to have their items before the cheatings.
Then it became a rule that any item upgraded max(+7) or almost max(+5,6) must have a video and a gm present for it not to be wiped. Every other item that the method of how it was obtained was not witnessed or confiremed, has a high chance of being wiped.

All cheats are not time savers. I often make cheats and hacks to make games harder or change the way they play at some level for it to be more fun for me.

Personally, I think mods are the compromise to cheating. They change how the game is, break some rules but creates new ones. Make the game easier, harder or even make it better.
Still, they are mods. Like what you said, in a way you'd end up with a different game. It's what happens with each version of Dota, you can't play with someone on 6.79b if you are on 6.79.

Is that a good comparison though? I have to have timing/reactions to play most MMORPGS, the time investment is quite literally up in the thousands of hours where you have to be properly dedicated to do it and the games usually still allow for lower level play (they kind of have to or they would not have anybody still paying/playing).

Pokemon is arguably a different sort of game -- no timings/skill/reactions needed to breed other than so much press A, the time investment is "long weekend" or a few hours per mon (to the point where everybody can easily get there) and though it is a bit more nebulous (assuming my "some just like the high level battle aspect/game" argument from earlier does not fly) the battle stuff tends immediately towards as good as it gets mons.

In a way, it is a good comparison. Both situations are the same in terms of skipping certain aspects of the game just because you find it tiring even though it's what the game requires you to.
Both are cheating.

 

[DaniPoo]

If you cant stand the rules of this game, then maybe you should play something else?
You earn great pokemon by spending time, having some luck, and use some brains and thats a part of the game.
What do you gain from winning with maxed out pokemon that you created with a computer software?
Do you feel proud that you won? To me thats just bullshit, I used to cheat too. But man that just takes away all the fun.

You pokemon loose value as you never spent much time getting them.

There are many games out there where you could start the action right away and rewards you for skill. Mainly FPS games and racing games ofcource.
But still we see cheaters in those kind of games too. But it's always annoying and frustrating for those players who play by the rules.

What if more and more people are starting to create perfect pokemon like this. It would destroy the purpose of playing by the rules and getting great pokemon the fair way after you lose time after time to generated teams.
It's not supposed to be easy to obtain perfect pokemon and if everyone had maxed out pokemon they would loose their value and then the only things left of the game would be singel player and competitive fight between maxed out cheaters.

This is not wow, the real game doesnt start @ max lvl. The real game starts when you use your first pokeball. Thats what pokemon is about, catching, training, breeding and using them in battles.
I found a great Pikachu with surperior IV's in the first forest. It didnt require any time at all, it was just luck. And that pokemon is lvl100 now and kicking some ass!
People who cheat should never be accepted no matter what. So stop bitching about not having the time to play its just silly.

 

[lordofthereef]

If you cant stand the rules of this game, then maybe you should play something else?

You earn great pokemon by spending time, having some luck, and use some brains and thats a part of the game.
What do you gain from winning with maxed out pokemon that you created with a computer software?
Do you feel proud that you won? To me thats just bullshit, I used to cheat too. But man that just takes away all the fun.

I would agree if legal hacked pokemon were the be all end all of winning. Fact is, if you don't know WTF you are doing, even with the best set of max ev/iv pokemon, you are going to fall flat on your face. Unfortunately, with the way the game has become, in order to be competitive, one MUST max out their EV/IV. And unless they want to spend all day biking around and hatching different monsters in order to try different sets, you sort of have to resort to doing what all of the other competitive folks do; import generated monsters.

EDIT: Not sure why it quoted you twice O.o

 

[DaniPoo]

Well, I have been able to score some wins with my pokemon that are far from perfect.
And yeah even some youngsters I know have been able to hold their own online a few times.
But I can almost bet my ass that it's going to change once the pokemon bank is released outside of Japan.
Yeah its probably going to be too difficult for us to keep up.

And it's kinda sad, Nintendo has clearly made these games mainly for the kids since the first games came out.
But most kids dont stand a chance anymore because of all the "grownups" with their perfect pokemon teames.

 

[lordofthereef]

Well, I have been able to score some wins with my pokemon that are far from perfect.
And yeah even some youngsters I know have been able to hold their own online a few times.
But I can almost bet my ass that it's going to change once the pokemon bank is released outside of Japan.
Yeah its probably going to be too difficult for us to keep up.

And it's kinda sad, Nintendo has clearly made these games mainly for the kids since the first games came out.
But most kids dont stand a chance anymore because of all the "grownups" with their perfect pokemon teames.

I suggest that the very problem with the game is how much time is required to be put into getting a competitive monster. Why even have IV's at all. If, as you say, the game is for kids, the kids aren;t mostly breeding these competitive monsters. So why make a mechanic that alienates what you say is the player base?

I would be perfectly happy if they got rid of EV/IV. Catch a charmander? Mine is the same as yours is the same as Timmy's. Let our battle prowess decide the victor. Not the stats of our mons.

 

[DaniPoo]

Well, im not sure I have a good answer for that, but I dont think Nintendo wanted us to be able to figure out IV's and how they in the first place, I belive they just wanted to make a pokemon randomly unique.
But since hackers made eveything that was hidden public, My guess is that Nintendo just decided to play along. I agree with that the games may hade been better without IV's

 

[Ryukouki]

I find that EV values are part of the competitive aspect, but the IV values just don't have any overall fit in the meta game as a whole, as everyone will most likely stack perfect IVs without a second thought.

 

[lordofthereef]

It's also worth noting that there are brackets for a reason. Those with hacked monsters will be at the top. Those without, at the bottom. If your argument is that you want to play with only people who bred and caught their monsters legit, you will. Because you won't move up on the ladder.

Well, im not sure I have a good answer for that, but I dont think Nintendo wanted us to be able to figure out IV's and how they in the first place, I belive they just wanted to make a pokemon randomly unique.
But since hackers made eveything that was hidden public, My guess is that Nintendo just decided to play along. I agree with that the games may hade been better without IV's

I am unsure if you are aware of this, but there is an IV checker in Kiloud after you've beaten the game. His very purpose is to tell you when a pokemon has perfect or 0 (since that, too, is sometimes desirable) IV. No, they may not have intended for us to be able to put a number value to it. But it's pretty obvious that "as good as it gets" means max. Therefore the IV value can be out of 100, or 19654, or any other huber. Fact remains there is an easily documented way to check those values. Best=Best.

It's also worth noting that GF has hinted at greatly altering IV/EV's in gen 7...

 

[DaniPoo]

Thats what I ment with "Nintendo decided to play along".

 

[lordofthereef]

Thats what I ment with "Nintendo decided to play along".

I get that, but... why add fuel to the fire (speaking of Nintendo here). "Oh well, hackers be hackers, let's play along" is a pretty poor way/reason to implement something in your game if you truly don't want people hacking...

 

[Ryukouki]

I get that, but... why add fuel to the fire (speaking of Nintendo here). "Oh well, hackers be hackers, let's play along" is a pretty poor way/reason to implement something in your game if you truly don't want people hacking...

I think (speculation face engaged) that it's more of a let people play how they want sort of mentality. If people want to go in and make their teams strong and competitive, it's kinda like, hey why not give them the resources to at least see if they are on the right track?